Reality Check – Michelle Hammer (Schizophrenic NYC)

Serena: [00:00:00] Welcome to the reality check psychosis is real. So is recovery podcast.

Ashley: I’m Dr Ashley Weiss. I'm a child adolescent psychiatrist

Serena: and I'm Serena Chaudry. I'm a clinical social worker

Ashley: and we are the co founders of Epic NOLA, which is an early psychosis intervention clinic in new Orleans and also the co founders of calm clear answers to Louisiana mental health.

Ashley: Welcome to the latest episode of reality check psychosis is real. So is recovery. On this episode, we're delighted to welcome our very special guest, Michelle Hammer. For those of you who do not know, Michelle is a prominent schizophrenia activist, advocate, and speaker who spends her time passionately fighting stigma.

Ashley: Michelle is a native New Yorker who's featured in the WebMD documentary, [00:01:00] Voices, which was nominated for an award at the Tribeca Film Festival. After her diagnosis, Michelle channeled her artistic talents and fearless personality to benefit the mental health community as a whole. And we're going to talk about a lot of things related to Michelle's awesome work.

Ashley: Um, welcome and thank you for doing this for us on a Friday afternoon. Yeah. Hey, thanks for having me. How's it going? It's going well. And we're totally looking forward to you. Uh, Seeing us in person in a couple of weeks at, in my mind. Oh

Michelle: yeah. I'm so excited.

Ashley: Your second appearance that in my mind, your second

Michelle: Will it be as good as the first?

Michelle: Who knows?

Ashley: I know, I feel like it's so much pressure now. Right,

Michelle: right.

Ashley: It's going to be a forever thing now. [00:02:00] So let's, let's talk a little bit about, um, kind of going back for you and tell us a little bit about your initial misdiagnosis. Subsequent, uh, diagnosis and how did things kind of unfold for you?

Michelle: Oh man, where do I start?

Michelle: I kind of, when I share my story, I kind of talk like, um, in high school, things kind of like, that's when things sort of started. I started acting differently and like my mom noticed and things that were going on was that, um, I always had this voice in my head, but I thought that everyone had a voice in their head, but this voice would always tell me everything you say is dumb, everything you do is stupid.

Michelle: Do is just, just the worst. So don't do anything. Don't talk to people. Don't speak to people, things like that. So because of this voice in my head telling me to do this, I became very introverted and I wasn't acting like myself, but also like a lot of people that have schizophrenia and don't know it, this hurt blaming the people around them, [00:03:00] things like that.

Michelle: So I thought that my mother was trying to hurt me, sabotage me, want me dead, all these things. I came up with like all these scenarios. So when I go to college, I think, okay, mom's not around. Everything's going to be great. First few weeks, amazing. And then all of a sudden I started thinking my best friend, my roommate is trying to hurt me, sabotage me, want me dead.

Michelle: And then it was just like, it clicked. I was like, this doesn't make any sense. Why would I be having these same thoughts about my roommate that I had about my mom? My mom was right. Like, that's a really hard thing to admit sometimes. You know, my mom was right. You know, something still is going on. So I made an appointment with the with the health center to see a therapist.

Michelle: And then I remember I saw this, this guy. And he almost kind of just asked me a bunch of things on a checklist. I didn't know what to say. I was very confused. And then he told me at the end of the meeting that I was bipolar. Here's a pamphlet, make it, um, make an appointment with the school [00:04:00] psychiatrist.

Michelle: And I was like, okay. And I just have like, when you hand somebody a pamphlet, why is that cover just, just so depressing? We need to make a new cover for pamphlet. That's what I'm trying. I need to, I want to redo. Mental illness pamphlets. You know what I'm saying? Like, why would somebody be happy? Right.

Michelle: Right? Why does this girl have to be crying on the cover? Like, you've been diagnosed with bipolar, look at your life, and a girl is crying on the cover. That's really uplifting. Very encouraging. I'm like, okay. Yeah, very encouraging. Thanks a lot. Right? Right? So, uh, I go on these medications for bipolar. They like, I don't know what I'm supposed to be feeling.

Michelle: Cause I don't know what's going on. I've always never really felt super happy, but when I was really happy, people are like, you're a little too much. And I'm like, okay. So I was like, just. subdued, unhappy, didn't know what to do. So things didn't go so well. So in college, I ended up [00:05:00] in the psych ward three separate times.

Michelle: It wasn't a fun time. Then I saw a different doctor that just gave me like a medication that just really subdued me, calmed me down. And I finally got on that regularly after skipping a bunch of it, a bunch of different times. Like I finally got on it regularly. My coach was kind of like, Listen, if you're going to like hang around on this team, you need to take your medicine because every time you don't, something happens and I'm like, you're right.

Michelle: So that happened. And so after college, I didn't see that doctor anymore. I wasn't on medicine. And I told my mom I had to go see a doctor or like a therapist or psychiatrist. He needed medicine. So, you know, being the mother that she is, I'm 22. At this time. At this time. I wish I was still 22. I'm not 22 anymore.

Michelle: With that reserve. And she goes, I found you a therapist with decades of experience. But what comes with decades of experience? Just think about that. This bitty was like 70 years old. She was like [00:06:00] 70 years old. Like, thanks mom. I know you're looking for experience, but like, you want your 22 year old daughter to relate to a 70 year old British woman?

Michelle: Like, really? Like, really? Okay, that's very ageist of me. I can, that's really ageist of me, but like, like, does my mom not know me? Like, really? Okay, but anyway, the only reason I was speaking to this woman was because I wanted to talk to the psychiatrist because I knew I needed medicine. So that's all I used her for, really, was like, yeah, yeah, I'm seeing things, blah, blah, blah.

Michelle: So then I talked to the psychiatrist and you know, you guys just know me. I am just very, hello, like New York. Like, I'm going to talk to you. It's just going to be what it is. Like, he's asking me certain questions. And at one point I'm like, I'm not going to answer that. And he goes, no, you came here, you paid a lot of money.

Michelle: You're answering my questions. And I was like, somebody is holding me accountable. I like this guy. So I kept seeing him and then it was kind of like. After, like, discussing my symptoms, he's like, Are they in the room? I was like, They are standing right next to you. He's like, Yeah, I think you have [00:07:00] schizophrenia.

Michelle: And I was like, Really? But yeah, that's what happened. And then, it, like, I, like, I always tell the story, like, I was out with my best friends from, from college for, like, dinner, and I got all, like, I was like, I'm gonna tell them this, right? And I'm like, guys, I just want to tell you I have schizophrenia. And they were, they were like, isn't that what you had the whole time?

Michelle: Like that couldn't have been more obvious. And like, yeah, we told you that. And I'm like, all right, well, okay. I guess it was that obvious. And why do I, why do I care about people that didn't, that don't know me and they're going to judge me when my best friends already knew don't care. And what I mean, it's whatever.

Michelle: So. That, that's the story, that's my answer to your, that's my long winded answer to your question.

Ashley: No, I think that's a perfect long winded answer to like a common thing and, you know, the, uh, like a notion that like a bipolar disorder diagnosis is [00:08:00] somehow like better than a schizophrenia diagnosis or, I don't know, I mean like, Why, I mean, it, it does matter in terms of like what you said, like getting your medication, right?

Ashley: It actually matters a lot. Right.

Michelle: That's what I, sometimes people are like, I don't want to be diagnosed with schizophrenia. I don't want that diagnosis. And I'm always like, well, getting the right diagnosis means you get treated for the correct issue.

Serena: Right. Don't you want

Michelle: that? You know, totally.

Serena: No, I was totally struck by I don't remember this part of the story that after this happened when you were at college, or you were feeling right, like, not yourself and, um, thinking that your roommate was out to get you that you had the insight to know that this was different and to seek help.

Serena: Like, that's super. I don't want to say super rare, but I think really an important point to note, right? To encourage people to listen to [00:09:00] themselves and their gut instincts when they think something is off.

Michelle: Yeah. I just knew it didn't make any sense because it was the same exact thought. And I was like, that doesn't make sense.

Michelle: She's not doing that. This makes no sense. But I, but in earlier years, I believed my mom was doing those things. I thought like, She was really out to get me, but she wasn't. So I kind of felt really bad. But you know, that was teenage daughter thing. Yeah, I have, it is what it is. She had that book. I remember she had that book that said like, my teenage daughter is crazy.

Michelle: I saw that book on her nightstand one time. Oh, I've never seen this book. That's not, it's something like that. It was something like that. Yeah.

Ashley: Yeah. I got told a story yesterday by a mom of one of my patients who was telling me about issues with her own mom and that her mom got in the car and in the passenger seat, [00:10:00] she had this like, how to deal with your mother book with like tons of highlights and tabs and everything.

Ashley: And her mom was like, What's this? And she's like, Oh, nothing. Like, everything's great. You're like It's my friends.

Ashley: So, I guess if If you were to, well, we've talked about you, you, you've said to be self reflective and to try to make, if things don't make sense, then it might be something to, to bring up. I guess I'm curious what you, um, I think it's hard sometimes when people are building their narrative to try to make sense of something that doesn't make sense.

Ashley: I'm just wondering what your, like, rationale was about why your friends might be out to get you. [00:11:00] I

Michelle: mean, like, I don't know. I just knew it was the same thought. I knew it was the exact same way of thinking. I felt the same voice. I thought the same thing. And that's what I was like, No, just, just this, like, it was the same pattern of thinking.

Michelle: It was the exact same copy of thoughts. And like, I just knew, I knew she would not do that. Right. And I didn't know why I was thinking that, but I knew it was the, it was, it was the same thing. I just knew it was the exact same thing. And I knew it made no sense. That's how I figured it out. And I'm not saying like, it's not like I figured it out and the things went so well, you know, it still took a very long time to become a stable and, you know, living a well managed life, but having that insight was the start.

Michelle: So at least I got that insight [00:12:00] and finding insight is the hardest part. For most people.

Ashley: Was there a certain, like we've talked a lot about your thoughts and like the pattern of thought, was there a feeling that was associated with it?

Michelle: Was there a feeling? Um, I, I probably, yeah, it was just, it's just like all encompassing feeling.

Michelle: Yeah. Like that whole, like, you know, when you're so paranoid and you believe it in every ounce of you, like that this thing is going on, but. And you kind of have to be reality checked, like, that's not happening, like, what are you talking about? Like, you know, nobody's reading your mind, what do you think?

Michelle: You're not psychic, like, you are not psychic, like, what are you talking about?

Ashley: Yeah, I think we talk, like, I'll just find, like, in my own being with, being with people, with patients, that there's, You know, they're asked about their thoughts so much, but then I hear them trying to describe it, like the [00:13:00] feeling is so like intense, like associated with it all.

Ashley: Um, and, and that's sometimes like really difficult to manage when you're, when like the thought process isn't making sense, but you feel it so in your body and you feel it so encompassing. Um, And, and that that's a difficult part to actually put into words, you know, when you're asking what's going on with someone.

Michelle: Yeah, you, you, you believe it. You totally believe it. And you come up with a million different stories to make, to make it real. And just like, I feel like figuring it out is hard and like just any kind of weird delusion that you're having. Like, you make up a million stories about how it's true, but then like, If things are happening like that, I'll call a friend and be like, Did this happen?

Michelle: And they're like, No. But what about this? No. But what about this? No. But what about this? No. But what about that? Oh. Something like that did happen, but all this other stuff that you're talking about, that never happens. You know? You're doing your reality check. Exactly. That's what I've, I've called a lot [00:14:00] of friends.

Michelle: And been like, Hey. Did this ever happen? They're like, what are you

Serena: talking

Michelle: about?

Serena: No, that's so good. And that's, you know, right. We want to encourage or try and encourage people to find their tools, their ways to reality check and, um, help get clarity. Uh, so you were talking about how you are, it's taken you a while to live this well managed life and you're living what seems to be a really well managed life.

Serena: Tell us what your life is like in 2024. What's a day in the life of Michelle.

Michelle: A day in the life. Well. My dog likes to wake me up by jumping on me and like licking me all over the face, which is so gross. So my dog wakes me up. And then I watch the first 15 minutes of Kelly and Ryan. Not, oh, Kelly and Mark, Kelly and Mark.

Michelle: I watch the first 15 minutes, and that's when I take my medicine. And then I'll check my email and see what I have to do pretty much for the day. Am I responding to these people making that video, making videos that I have to [00:15:00] make? Packaging packages, going to the post office, going to like Fountainhouse, the clubhouse or the gallery meetings, figuring out that stuff.

Michelle: You know, every day is different when I run my own business. Cause I really never know what's happening. Am I recording podcasts this day? Am I having a meeting with these people on that day? You know, everything is different, but it always starts off pretty much with that 15 minutes in the morning.

Serena: That's awesome.

Serena: That's a great tool for remembering to take your meds. I didn't know that

Ashley: Ryan had changed to Mark.

Michelle: Yes, it's, yes, Ryan, Ryan's doing Wheel of Fortune now.

Ashley: I saw that, but I did not know if it meant he wasn't doing the morning one. I was like, that's a, that's an intense gig to do both.

Michelle: It is, it is, it is.

Ashley: So one of the things that, um, You did these videos where you did security cam footage and that got a lot of like chatting on, [00:16:00] on social media.

Ashley: So what kind of pushed you to actually like open up people into your space, like into your home environment?

Michelle: Right. Well, I first started doing like a video. Like I was trying to explain to my psychiatrist that I could not stop talking to myself. I just couldn't. And he was like, can you get it on video?

Michelle: And I was like, I'll try. So one time, like I set up my computer photo booth video thing, and I was just kind of looking off and then I thought like, Oh, I didn't even get anything. Let me review the video. And it was me like making the weirdest faces doing such strange things. And then I had put it on YouTube, but I set it as private and I sent it to him.

Michelle: And he's like, you know, you put that on YouTube. I was like, Oh no, it's private. Don't worry. And then one day I was like, you know what? Let's make it public. Why not? And then I was like, let me try to get more videos. But then I tried so hard and I wouldn't do it because. I knew there was a camera on me. I went to my friend's house and she had little cameras for her dogs.

Michelle: And I was like, Oh, are those expensive? And she goes, that are [00:17:00] cheap on Amazon. And I was like, Oh, a little security cameras are cheap. I had no idea. So I decided to buy one on Amazon and I stuck it in my living room. And then I started getting all of these videos and I was like, let me just show people what, what it's like, what schizophrenia is when you're talking to hallucinations, having these episodes.

Michelle: Cause if you think of like. A person with schizophrenia, I have in an episode. You might just, like, think someone's running around, being dangerous, holding weapons, trying to hurt people. Like, no. That's me on my couch, watching TV, and then I'm talking to nobody. That is not violent. At all. Like, one time, I elbowed my futon, and this woman said, You're dangerous.

Michelle: And I'm like, you know, no futons, you know, you were damaged in this video. Like it's, it's okay. You know, there's no violence here. Like the, the futon was fine. Everything's safe. Like, calm down. You know, it's all good. Like no one's there. Like that's the most violent thing that ever happened in any of those videos was that I [00:18:00] elbowed my futon.

Michelle: But like, that's the whole point. Nothing's happening. And then people are like, I do the same thing too. Am I schizophrenic? And I'm like, no, like, no. Like I take a lot of medication and this happens. Like if you're just talking to yourself, that's a whole different thing. Right, right, right.

Serena: You, you know, I think the videos are awesome in that they really like help to demonstrate what.

Serena: Some symptoms look like, and also to de stigmatize, right? To get these wild ideas out of people's heads and replace them with reality. Um, what are some of the positive, what's some of the positive feedback you've gotten from those videos?

Michelle: A lot of the positive feedback is more, is more like, like, um, like, thank you for like showing me what my like loved one goes through, things like that, or just breaking the stigma, you know, all like answers like that.

Michelle: And then I also get like negative feedback, like you're an actress and I'm like, Thank you. But no, that's a compliment. Right. I'll take it. I'll take it. I thought people [00:19:00] would be like, yeah, well then how did you, you know, you press the button to record and it was like, read the caption people. It says security camera, always recording.

Michelle: People just don't read a caption, but a lot of people just like that. I'm breaking the stigma that I'm showing what it looks like. And, you know, and a lot of people are like, that looks just like, you know, my friend or my loved one. When, when they talk to themselves, you're showing what it really looks like, you know?

Michelle: Just, just showing people what it looks like. That, you know what I mean? No, there's no danger. Maybe the futon. But there's no danger. Well,

Ashley: those kind of reactions, like, that's the point you're exactly making. Is that, yes, you're still so stigmatized and misinformed that you think that this isn't actually happening.

Michelle: Right. Yeah. Exactly. And people thinking that it's like nothing, it's like, well, maybe that's the whole point that it's nothing. They're like, I'm not even watching anything. Yeah. And yeah, because it's not, it's not, it's nothing. There's no big deal. Calm down, you [00:20:00] know, like calm down. Stop saying schizophrenia is the worst illness you could ever have.

Michelle: Like. To some people you could might think that but there's many other illnesses and we're not playing the Suffering Olympics anyway, you know Oh gosh.

Ashley: Yes, you should put that on a shirt. Yes the Suffering Olympics Nobody wins and I think to that, you know the yeah, you you saying like I'm on medication but still have still have these experiences sometimes.

Ashley: And that doesn't mean you're not unwell. I mean, all of us are trying to like live a well life, but that doesn't mean that everything is like roses all the time, schizophrenia or not. And, and I have, have, I'll have a lot of, of my patients that I've like shown them the video because they don't want to like tell me in the moment.

Ashley: I'm like, what are they saying? And they're like, oh, I can't tell you. You're going to think I'm like really sick. And I'm like, [00:21:00] No, I'm just like curious and gonna like help figure out a way to maybe like deal with it and I'll show them like, see, it doesn't like, it, it doesn't mean that you're ill or like, gonna be violent and elbow the food on it's just like, uh, you know,

Michelle: everybody coughs sometimes.

Michelle: Sometimes people, they'll, they'll ask me what I'm talking about. And it's like, it's, it's so pointless and stupid. So sometimes I'll include the conversation and then people don't even comment on the conversation.

Serena: Like, it's

Michelle: why do you, why do people ask all the time? And I'm like, I think the most recent one I posted, I was like, they were arguing with me about the best boy bands.

Michelle: Like, who cares? Like. It's the dumbest conversation all the time. They like just before I thought it was so funny to tell the coffee shop people that they're not hiring my dog. Cause it's not, cause she's not a DEI hire [00:22:00] dog, you know, whatever. inclusion, you know, I thought it was so funny and my hallucination thought it was so funny too.

Michelle: Like this happened like two hours ago, right? But, but my partner was like, who the hell are you talking to? And what are you saying? And I'm like, you don't want to know. You don't want to know. That is private information. Yeah.

Ashley: Well, I have to ask. What boy band did you think was the best?

Michelle: I mean, my personal best was the Backstreet Boys, but this hallucination kept telling me that the newer stuff was terrible.

Michelle: And I was like, I agree with you. Stop yapping. I know. I know. I don't like the newer Backstreet Boys. The older stuff was better. The newer stuff that came out with sucks. I know. Like, I know. And then I was like, shut the hell up. And then I saw the camera and I was like, Oh, it's fake. Okay. This is gone. Thank God.

Michelle: Right. Um, they're, they're, they argue. They're just the worst arguers and they're so annoying. [00:23:00] What's the like, they're like people, can you try to touch them? And I'm like, no, I can't touch them. And I'm not going to try to, because you don't realize in that moment. Except for, I guess I tried to elbow one of it at one time.

Michelle: That one time, I guess I tried to elbow somebody and it didn't work out.

Ashley: It didn't work. That one time. So you are wearing, um, your couture, um, clothing right now, audience can't see, but I want to hear about your clothing line, about, um, all of the, the cool things that you're doing in your, um, entrepreneurial world.

Michelle: Sure. So, um, a whole bunch of years ago I started Schizophrenic NYC and it's a whole mental health and lifestyle brand. I sell like t shirts, some have like the Rorschach test on them, some have like slogans like the one I'm wearing now is don't be paranoid, you look great. There's like, it's not a delusion, you are incredible, define normal, I'm mentally ill and I don't [00:24:00] kill.

Michelle: And it's just, I kind of set up pop ups on the street, I sell the shirts, I also sell some artwork that I have, um, I wrote a book. Should you hide your mental illness? I mean, no, should you hide your schizophrenia? That's what it's called. Let me remember the name of it. Right. All right. And, um, pill boxes that are fun.

Michelle: So some totes, some mugs, um, looking around the room in here to remember what I sell. You know, fun stuff, make some leggings and I usually have pop up shops. I've been all over the city and it's, you know, wherever I go, I'm having the most ridiculous conversations with people, but I always meet psych nurses and I'm always like, don't commit me, I'm good, don't commit me.

Michelle: But I meet people from all over the country and all over the world and it's always a fun time and I love Australians, they're so nice. Oh, that's good to know that they buy the most Australians really the most. Yes. They love mental health. Those Australians. I love Australia.

Serena: Hopefully you'll get an [00:25:00] invite to Australia.

Michelle: I wish. Right.

Ashley: That would be awesome.

Serena: That would be so

Ashley: cool. Shout out to the folks at origin in Australia.

Serena: Bring Michelle hammer to you. Right.

Ashley: A lot of first episode people out in, uh, Australia that do research in that, in that area. Yeah. Well, we are really excited to see you in person very soon and Your website is schizophrenic nyc.

Ashley: com We will it is link,

Michelle: but it really is schizophrenic dot NYC.

Ashley: Oh, well, then I need to be corrected Schizophrenic dot nyc. com

Michelle: No, just schizophrenic dot

Ashley: NYC.

Serena: Oh my god all the times that we've been on it and We

Michelle: I own that domain schizophrenicnyc. com because people have said it wrong so many times. So I own [00:26:00] that domain as well.

Ashley: How did you get that name without having to have a

Michelle: com or org? Because there, in New York City, they have the nyc domain. And then, they haven't done it in a long time, but there was the nyc awards. And somehow I don't, I entered and I don't know how, but I won and I won 5, 000. Amazing. Right? That was awesome.

Michelle: Yes. That's so great. You have to live in New York City and the credit card you use must be linked to a New York City address. To get the dot NYC.

Serena: They need

Michelle: to start a dot NOLA.

Ashley: Maybe you can help us. That would be cool.

Michelle: We gotta talk to your, your, your governor or whatever.

Ashley: We will, we won't, we won't comment on that conversation.

Ashley: Thank you, thank you so much. Um, we'll leave you to your beautiful New York City weather. [00:27:00] 79 degrees. Yes, on a Friday evening at the end of September. That's. I agree. That's great. So it's been a pleasure, Michelle, and we'll see you soon. All right. Bye.

Serena: Until next time, thanks for taking the time to get your reality check.

Serena: And remember, psychosis is real. So is recovery.

Ashley: If you have enjoyed this episode or found it useful, please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts from and check out the website, calmnola. org.