Ep. 33 – Reality Check – Tom Johnson

Welcome to Reality Check. I'm Serena.

And I'm Ashley.

And we are very, very lucky and honored to be here today with Tom Johnson, who comes from Macon, Georgia, if I understand correctly, and made his way from Macon to the White House and later on to the LA Times, Los Angeles Times, and to CNN. And he has recently written and published a book called Driven.

And it's about this journey from Georgia to the White House.

and his battle with depression and how he has come to this moment in his career where he's ready to share about the way in which that influenced his journey, his life, and what he's doing now to help other people come forward. Welcome, Tom.

Thank you very much for having me. I so appreciate the fact that you're undertaking this and all else that you're doing to try to help those of us who have experienced depression and other mental illnesses.

Yeah, that's awesome. And I think it's a personal undertaking for a lot of us that do this work. And I I'm just really glad that we can have a group that does so many things but we also a lot of us have in common our own lived experience, which is a strong motivator

Well, and

I would

just like to say at the outset, because I'm tempted to hold this for the conclusion, but I think it's important. Depression is a treatable illness. I want to

Yes.

emphasize that. And with today's new meds and today's new therapies, most people can get better.

Mm-hmm.

And I put my more than 30 years of working very closely in the field.

But from the time I first became clobbered by it, there weren't the type of meds that we have available today, not the type of treatments available today. And I just hope that those who are in a really deep dark place realize that with their own effort, which it takes, it that there are now people and programs that can be very, very helpful.

For sure, and I appreciate you leading with that, because I think that at the end of the day is what matters. These are treatable illnesses, and the first step is one being willing to seek treatment. So I want to start today's podcast by asking you: you've had an extraordinary career and have lived a very, very full life and have battled depression throughout. What inspired you to come forward at this moment, write this book, and talk openly about your battle with depression?

At

first I was absolutely opposed to going public because I had seen situations where in companies but also in public service, if you acknowledge that you are battling depression, it can affect the way in which you are perceived, and often it can lead to people not promoting you within a company.

or not promoting you within public service, including the military, the stigma that existed was so powerful. And I had seen it in in in my own work. and it was my wife, Edwina who said, Tom, if you don't talk about it, you'll never be free. And

Hmm.

I found that talking about it really took enormous pressure off of me.

Right.

cause I was hiding it. I mean, there were times when I would ask my assistant to hold my schedule or to rework my schedule, particularly at the LA times, and in order to really sort of get a bit of just of a break. I mean, I would lay, under my desk and something like getting a nap that would restore my energy for a period of time.

But the more I went public and talked about it as openly as I could, the more I really felt that it was helping others to do the same thing. and you know, yes, if you believe that it will hurt your promotion or believe that it can hurt you in some way, I respect keeping it confidential. at one point you had to sign

for your clearances in the military, a line on the clearance form that said, I do not now and never have taken a mood altering drug. Well, an antidepressant is a mood altering drug. And I went to the State Department, and others, and they changed that. I hope it's still now where it's not required. Because certainly, I mean you either you either lie

or or you tell the truth and if you say, Yes, I have used a mood altering drug, and it's an antidepressant and it costs you I mean it's really a very, very serious problem.

Yeah, I I used to do mental health on a college campus and even our, you know, young people in the ROTC would really struggle with getting I mean, getting let go even then or it becoming this huge deal.

So

much that they'd get to college and want to get off of their antidepressant because they wanted to further their ROT experience and career in military and it was prohibitive and that was in twenty fourteen.

You you speak about, right, the effort you went to not talk about it. You rearranged your schedule, you took naps under desks, right? I think you need two things that I wanna explore further. One, you did that because of stigma, right? Stigma within systems. And I'm wondering if there was some self-stigma, right? Some unwillingness or fear of saying it out loud because that

would add something else to it.

There

definitely was a fear of saying it out loud in the beginning. and I simply had seen so many people experience the impact of going public in situations that felt that it wouldn't be a problem, but they then saw they did not get when they were really due to get a promotion or expected to have consideration.

for upward movement in the workplace, upward movement in public service positions. so you know once I went public myself, I also felt I needed to do whatever I could to convince institutions. LA Times, in the case of in Atlanta, we were then owned by Ted Turner. And I should also tell you,

When Ted Turner first interviewed me, I said Ted, before you hire me, you need to know that I battle depression. And Ted's response was Hell pal, let me tell you about me.

Mm. Yeah.

So we had a w we really did have a very positive workplace at least at Turner Broadcasting. And I think it really as we were acquired by AOL and Time Warner and others, I really think that in many ways we were able to we were able to contribute to a more enlightened policy with our human resources departments and with our managers.

Yeah, I think that when people open up, they often find that there are others in the room, right, who have a similar story to sh to share and to tell. And right, there's a ripple effect when one person has the courage to speak, others speak, and in that we you know, combat the stigma.

you were talking about so we were talking about self-stigma and systemic stigma and the reality that those ping-pong off each other and they reinforce each other and we need to be working simultaneously at both in order to dismantle both. And that takes energy and courage, and also it takes energy to hide, right?

Right.

To hide the depression, to hide, in our case, the psychosis. And I think

that's really important to name. And you named it directly or indirectly at the beginning. You were saying, you know, just the hiding under your desk and the things you did to keep it from the public eye, but that when you went out into the public and shared, you have felt a sense of relief. And I I'm so grateful that you named that spontaneously, because I think that that is a real that's relatable for so many people.

Well, and I will also say that my wife Edwina had seen me experiencing depression and the way in which it affected me. She said, Tommy, I was that's sort of the name I had growing up in high school, you must go and get professional care. I mean, she was almost as emphatic, maybe more emphatic about that than almost anything.

in in our marriage. so in in my case, I did have make an appointments in that case with UCLA Department of Psychiatry and it didn't take the psychiatrist with like maybe two appointments before he's always said to me Mr. Johnson you have chronic depression and it was

I I know I was having real problems. and I think I had reached a point, particularly since I had an uncle who had been hospitalized with depression, that I acknowledged it and after that I really began a program of it com that combined many steps, including of course an antidepressant. Although

I went through several antidepressants before I found the one that really worked. And I

Mm-hmm.

try to tell people, do not get disappointed, do not give up just because one antidepressant doesn't work. It's sometimes it takes trial and error.

Mm-hmm.

in my years, almost always now there's scientific tests, including blood tests, that are far better at determining what illness you're influencing.

Yeah.

You mentioned the exhaustion. Serena was talking about the exhaustion of not only the experiencing depression, but then the having to maybe hide it, fear of disclosure, and then the exhaustion from the people around you of seeing you suffer, seeing their loved ones suffer. And it and then the exhaustion of starting treatment, because you're right, it's a journey and it's you know

I tell patients all the time, you don't wake up one day and say, I'm, you know, in this case, you don't wake up one day saying, I'm hearing voices. Like it's a slow development. The same with depression, it's a slow development. And then it's a slow journey sometimes, becoming feeling better, that it really will feel very daunting, you know, to to to get to that point of where you want to be. But

What I guess during that part of your journey, what were what were some of the things you told yourself? How did you surround yourself? you mentioned your wife a couple times, but what were the ways that you felt motivated when by when your biology wasn't motivating you? Like what are the ways you stay motivated to to keep on the journey?

First, I identified people I could absolutely trust, people with whom I could share my story without fear of it as being spread. But

Mm-hmm.

then as I started getting more public about it, I found more people were coming to me to

Mm.

discuss theirs. I mean, they were opening up theirs, they had kept secret, or very, very private, but then more and more people were coming to me to ask me.

how I felt about going more public. that and so so you know in a way I I felt I was becoming a more of an expert because there was probably no topic at that time that I was studying more, researching more than depression on it. I started you know reading. I also d developed some friends

Art Buchwald the columnist, Mike Wallace of Sixty Minutes,

Mm-hmm.

Uh-huh.

and Bill Styron, the author. And they had all three been hospitalized at some point

Well

with with depression.

And I I must tell you they gave me tremendous encouragement to do more in the field. among other things.

I mean I know that if you have wealth and if you have power, you can find psychiatrists, psychopharmacologists, counselors to help. But if you have no wealth, if you have no insurance, if you are among the many, many millions of people who are unable to be to be covered, it's it's it's tough.

So

I turned my attention to programs that I studied that were doing an outstanding job. One of them was here in Atlanta called Skyland Trail. It happens

Mm-hmm.

to do a terrific job in the field. But also we started to create fellowships and scholarships so that those people who aren't in the categories of ha having the financial means to do it can get it.

But but I've worked with other and and I think that's so important because I'm so fortunate that I have wealth. Not billions, but having have wealth. So I can get it. I can get it for our family. I also have insurance. and and I should tell you, one of the other battles was to get parity, but but

Mm-hmm.

the insurance. I really went to work on getting parity so that

The you know, companies were providing insurance for those who have a broken arm or a broken leg, but not those who have a broken mind. And as tough as it is to say it, I mean depression is a form of having an illness of of of of the brain. and I should tell you we've made tremendous progress, but not enough on parity. and

Right. Right.

and I should tell you the best people to help.

in this campaign are those who've been directly affected, their parents, their grandparents, their close associates in it. And I've really been very proud to have been able to raise funds for programs to help those people that need it and don't have financial resources to get it.

Yeah, I really appreciate you being able to recognize your own privilege and the the access that others don't because of their lack of resources. I'm super proud to say that our clinic sees anyone regardless of their means to pay. We expect Medicaid, Medicare, and even those who are uninsured. And that is a for me bottom line in terms of the work that I do that is a must. Access is a must. and at the same time, our systems don't always write allow people to find

That care easily, and there are not enough people who are trained working in federally qualified health centers or community mental health to deal. So I think the fight still needs to be fought, and we've come a long way, but we still have a ways to go. I think about you talked about genetics and you talked about family history, and something Ashley and I have talked about and we dream about is having people recognize this.

Family history up front. Like this needs to be talked about in pediatric appointments, whether it be depression or psychosis. If we are talking about it, identifying the genetic lineage, the stigma goes away, the awareness increases, and we can help people earlier on, maybe not necessarily in preventing it, but catching the symptoms early on so they don't become chronic and debilitating. And I'm curious, in your own family, you mentioned.

that your son has been battling depression as well.

No,

no, not my son, our daughter. And incidentally,

Your daughter, I'm sorry. I missed that.

our daughter she attended Duke, then she got a degree from SMU, then she attended the Wright Institute at Berkeley. and and in her early years she focused a lot of her work in this field, because of our family history. And and I should also just mention my uncle

He was in the Milledgeville State Hospital for the Insane. That's what it was called. And my

Yeah.

mother and I would visit him once or twice a year, one of the most thoughtful, kind people. But his family had committed him to this hospital. And he really didn't have a lawyer to represent him. He didn't have anybody but his sister, my mother, and and others to sort of be supportive of this. So the

Institutions have changed a lot and let's just take genetics. You know, I know that you know depression at least can result from genetic from

situations that come along and just so knock it out of you situational and chemical. And you women are much more experienced with many of the chemical

elements of of all this. But guys, I when guys come to me, I say, look, they will tell me about it. I said, I ask you to do one thing tomorrow, next two days. Go and have your

testosterone levels checked. Because

Mm.

low testosterone can can trigger many of the same symptoms as as a genetic form of

depression. Now

You guys are more familiar with hormones than I am. But but it's it's really it's so important to realize that, you know, I think the toughest of them all is genetic. The situations where you have lost a family member, where you've where where your your marriage has broken up, where you know your f you've your finances have all blown up or whatever. They're they're they're tough on it. But you know, we all must

try

to recognize

the various forms of of depression and find what works best. And I must tell you, I still think we are in the early stages of of of research. I some people said, no, we're in the when we're in very advanced, but I think we have so much more to learn about our body chemistry, about our brain health. and I personally I I I'm 85 now.

But I mean, so I've been dealing with this mostly I got hit in my 40s. but I want to do what I can do with the time I have left to really make a difference in in this field. There's just too many people sitting in darkened rooms right now as we talk.

Mm-hmm.

They don't know what to do. They don't

Right.

have any money, they don't have a friend, they don't have anybody. And I heard his song.

That I mentioned in my book called Throw Out the Lifeline. And if you've never heard it, I hope you will, because it had such an impact on me. You know, there are a lot of people out there that are drowning. And if we could just throw out the lifeline to one person, I may not be able to affect a billion. when I had an editorial page, maybe I could affect more or add CNN. But if we just can pull somebody that's drowning ashore and get them help and get them back on track.

It can be done. I know it can be done. And one of the reasons that I wanted to do this program with the two of you and your organization is that I see what you are doing in in in that way. I mean, I see that you really are trying to make a difference, and particularly for people that don't have the resources.

we appreciate that. and I it's I think all of us have like all of us are a part of

have experiences with our bodies, with not being healthy, with having struggles in various ways. And one of the things that you mentioned that is so important, I wanted to just highlight is that it is complicated. You know, it's complicated the your genetics that you're born with, and then life is complicated. And and the intersection is so incredibly complicated.

However, at each at each of these, at each of these points, there are things that you there are things that you can be aware of. There are things that you can stay away from. You know, I I know that I'm genetically predisposed for bipolar disorder and major depressive disorder. I maybe want to stay away from mind-altering chemicals. You know, like you

Mm-hmm.

can, you, there are things that are within your control that

that

d do make a difference. So even you know, we we talked about early intervention and very, very early, and even screening for family history to be able to provide support to somebody before they realize, like before they have to do it themselves. Like, you know, this is a risk. and we're here, you know, like that way, that way before it becomes so unbearable.

that that you already sort of set up to to be able to make a phone call and be like, hey, yeah, that thing that we were talking about, you know, two years ago that really didn't resonate. I'm kind of feeling like that now. You know, so it maybe is to make things easier for people. Like things are so complicated all of the time. Like just to make it easier. And that the mind and body, like broken arms and

symptoms of depression, like why are they even thought about as like two separate things? You know, it's all it's all it's all part of like our body and our health, and should be treated as such.

I should mention that I meet with a significant number of people who come to see me, many of whom ask for total secrecy. and I know when they ask that it's probably something that it's probably in the field of depression. But I find that many people who have depression are treating themselves with alcohol and other substances.

Right.

And

when I sit down with them privately, nobody knows what we're covering except the two of us. I usually say, look, I know there is a quite a significant overlap between depression and addiction. and I asked them, I said, how are you handling alcohol and substances? And many of them admit

that they are, as I said, treating themselves with too much alcohol, are are are substances. The substances have gotten much more dangerous. Much more dangerous. Marijuana was one thing, but they have moved up to where now it's into even more in into cocaine and and in into fentanyl for God's sakes, on it. But I then say to them, you must

You must be ready, be ready. If you seriously want to get well, you need to go for treatment for your alcoholism or or drug ab abuse. And I worked together with with with Hazleden Betty Ford, and also I created an addiction center here in Atlanta. MDs, PhDs, psychiatrists, and others. It's it's it that that we we needed

a a really f first rate quality addiction center here and have a a an MD, Dr. Justine Welsh, trained psychiatrist in in the field of addiction studies. But but there is this importance of realizing and and and there's a quote that I sometimes use it is that you cannot push anyone up the ladder.

unless he or she is willing to climb. You cannot push anybody up the ladder unless they really are willing to climb. And and that's inside. And and I mean and and you you as much as we all want to help, the the having that determination that most of the people I know that are getting well have just had a determination that by God

This is not the way that I want to live. This is not the way that I and but it's a I tell you, it's you know better than I do. I mean I'm I'm an I'm I I have a journalism degree and an MBA and a few other lesser kinds of education. But

Yeah.

I really that overlap in there, I can just work my butt off with somebody.

trying to help them get better about their depression and yet I then learned just how much alcohol or substances that that they are consuming to

Yeah.

try to really try I mean really to try to lift their own spirits.

Hmm. Yeah. They that that is exactly what they're trying. And I I hear you about the helping and scaffolding and helping people get well. And you know, it makes me think about a lot of our patients is sort of the first part is helping them find, you know, of that spark of determination again. Because a lot of times these illnesses will take that away.

they will take away the ability to even conceive of things being better. And you know, so starting at starting the conversation about symptoms is really not where you start. You just you're starting with helping them see that within them there they're even if you can just get a tiny, tiny, tiny bit, you know, it's something that we can work with. And and oftentimes that's like half the battle.

I love the quotes from Bill Styron. depression is the shipwreck of the soul. That's one. Second, depression is not a defect of character, but a symptom of a very complex and mysterious illness. And then the one I mean I always am asking people to read Bill Styron.

But depression is so overwhelming as to be beyond expression. and of course this also leads me to trying to do what I can to keep people from committing suicide, because

Right.

I've lost a few people, I've attended a few services, I've actually spoken at a few services of people, including a best friend of mine in Dallas, Texas, Rusty Rose, a best friend of mine in Austin, Texas, Jerry Lindauer.

and a nephew and they just were unable with even with resources to conquer

Right.

It is it is well we're all all on a mission to write help people find their way into treatment and to improve systems of care to help people get the services and support they deserve. as we move to close, I really do want to ask you a question based on your own personal experience and your work in these in the media, right? Like one of the things that we really want to do is to

Draw more attention to this in the media and not through stories of suicide only and/or school shootings or things that perpetuate stigma, but with stories of recovery. And we, and part of the reason we do this is our days are full of stories of recovery, people coming to get treatment, getting treatment early, and finding their way forward. And I I want to ask you: what would your recommendation be to us to help get those stories about?

at

the forefront of the media's, you know.

Like front page.

In my case,

in my case, I hired Dr. Sanjay Gupta to become

Do that.

the medical correspondent for CNN. I he also is a practicing neurosurgeon. But this is a topic that CNN and specifically Dr. Gupta covers periodically, perhaps not as regularly as I would like, but but periodically.

And of course, he writes a column for Time Magazine. He does occasionally 60 minutes on it. But I try to go to the reporters within the organizations, particularly those who are either suffering it from it themselves or who have a family member or a friend, and go up through the system. now it's maybe even better if you can identify one of the

leaders at the top who has the power, who and and I found that to be the case at a company here in Atlanta where one of their executives in the at the top of Cox Communications, which owned newspapers and television and and and and much more, but one of their top guys at the top had battled depression. So when you can learn that or work down it it helps a lot to have the power

but often just you have to work it work it up. and there's no magic answer. I have

Right.

every time I have an opportunity to speak, I talk about the importance of media in this. I mean, we're covering fires and floods and all types of huge disasters. Well, we have a disaster in our own midst. I I just look at the the number of people who are addicted, I've over people suffering.

From depression and and other mental illnesses. but thank goodness we have foundations, we have individuals that's that care. And you know what's so interesting is I help to raise money is to find out for say our addiction center. Find out who are the people who have in their family the the problem. It's that's the way to get the door really open because they want to help their son, their grandson, their

their their fr their friends and it and sometimes they don't really know. And that was one of the biggest reasons

Yeah.

why going public was so important.

Yeah. And that that you know, to that is something that we deal with in our our work specifically because illnesses with psychosis and you know mainly schizophrenia, carry just

you know, some of the worst stigma. you know, we meant we you talked about the mysteriousness of depression and, you know, there is an an incredible mysteriousness behind schizophrenia and just, you know, gross misunderstandings and so yeah, even just little, you know, moments like these to have you here, to to be a part of a conversation that

That needs to be so much bigger, we we really, really appreciate. And, you know, so that schizophrenia and and bipolar disorder can easily become, you know, the same way we talk about addiction, you know, now. And, you know, we we talk about anxiety much easier. We talk about PTSD much easier. Like when can we get the same comfort of talking about psychosis, talking about schizophrenia, that it's

that we're all part of the same team.

Well, I would love for you to keep me informed. In fact, email, not text.

We are happy to email you.

do far better

with email being able to forward, not do the cut and pasting that you do with tech. But I

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

I know that email's now considered sort of the pony express of delivery services with

Yeah.

Yeah.

text. I I'd like to stay up with your organization. send send me

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. Well if

you if you'd like, we can add you to our newsletter and you can get a monthly update as to what's going on

sure, I'd like to have it for a while.

Yeah.

Glad to pay for the subscription, whatever.

Yeah, it's free.

It's great.

Well, thank you so much. It was really an honor to talk to you and your courage is really inspiring. And I think you have thrown a lifeline to far more than one person and for that you should be really proud.

Do listen to Ella Fitzgerald throw out the lifeline. You could get it on almost any of the services, but it moved me profoundly 40 years ago.

I'm gonna do that as soon as we're finished.

and and it's such a it's such the idea

Yeah.

of not having to be able to, I may not be able to influence hundreds of thousands, but just one person, you know, one by one.

Mm-hmm.

Thank you so

Yeah.

much. I really appreciate all that you do. I'm a great admirer and I appreciate very much all that you do.

Thank you.