Ep. 27 – Reality Check – Joshua Hughes (EPIC Federal Credit Union)

right, good afternoon and welcome to Reality Check. I am Serena here by myself today. Ashley wasn't able to join, but I'm excited to have this conversation today with Joshua Hughes. Joshua comes to us from the Epic Credit Union where he's the Community Outreach and Engagement Coordinator and also from Loyola University where he is the, let's see if I can get it right, you work at the Center for Ethics and Economic Justice.

All right, and so he is coming here today and joining us in conversation about his work and how his work overlaps with the clinical work we do in our patients at Epic NOLA. We can't move forward without acknowledging it's epic and epic together.

Funny enough, our name's the line pretty good.

this Wednesday afternoon. So welcome to Reality Check. Tell us in your own words a little bit about who you are and the work you do.

Correct.

Well, Serena, thank you so much for having me. Again, my name is Joshua Hughes. I operate as the Community Outreach and Engagement Coordinator with Epic Federal Credit Union. I'm also a program coordinator with Loyola University New Orleans with their Center for Ethics and Economic Justice. My background is really diverse. I have the opportunity of being able to carry out all the information that's nestled within the credit union space and then be able to project it out into the world. So this means tremendous community engagement, whether going to high schools, universities,

correctional facilities, churches, restaurants, you name it, I'm typically out there. Typically, being able to relate to the appeals of our younger people. They have a very strong argument when they look out into the world and realize everything around them got more expensive and they don't know why. Not only that, but they're going out into the world and then realizing not only is the world not matching what they were taught,

All of a sudden they're competing, not just with the people that are around them, but everybody that's through the other end of the phone. And because of that, especially when we start from our younger people in high school, to even the more adult sort of people that are going through the world and realizing that everything is changing around them in real time. This is where the information nestled within the credit union matters so much. Understanding subjects like buy now, pay later. Understanding how subscriptions can actually come back to bite you.

All of these subjects are things that we wish we were really taught in high school, even in university for a lot of my fellow students. And it felt like it wasn't necessarily taught and we had to teach ourselves. The danger about teaching yourself is you can also make mistakes. So my objective is to try to alleviate those mistakes as best as possible.

Super cool. And so necessary, I think, for everybody, right? For sure, none of us or few of us were taught these lessons in school. We learned them through life and making mistakes. And that doesn't have to be how we learn about financial literacy, right? If we come into the world with some knowledge, we can prevent those mistakes. we, Epic and Epic got connected through Calm,

precisely.

clear answers to Louisiana mental health was out in the community, correct me if I'm wrong, doing the work we do about early detection and met you at a community event, excuse me, where you were doing early intervention on financial literacy.

That's correct.

That's exactly what the ThruLine

was.

And we reflected on that connection and thought it would be a really wise thing to do to bring Joshua into the clinic in Mid City and have you talk to our patients, many of whom are between the ages of 16 and 35, and getting their first jobs, going out into the world, not only without financial literacy, but also sort of managing their

mental illness and wellness and all the symptoms that they have to carry with them as they move forward into the world and through their recovery. So they're juggling a lot on top of maybe not knowing all they need to know and we brought you in to help give them, educate them, empower them with some knowledge about finances so that they can make good choices, not get caught up in any misinformation, discern what

is helpful information and hopefully build a solid financial foundation for themselves. So a couple weeks ago you came into the clinic and hosted our first lunch and learn on financial literacy. Tell us about that.

Exactly.

where you expect people to have six months worth of savings, and if your bill's tallied to about $3,000, you're considered financially solvent when you have about $18,000 or something like that saved up. Most people don't have $18,000 saved up. So with that in mind, what I love to do is go all the way back to the basics and presume nobody knows anything, so that by the end of the discussion, everybody knows a very good foundation when it comes down to it. So after doing brief introductions,

Everyone got to learn a little bit about me and my background. But I also got to start off with one explaining what exactly is a savings account? What exactly is a checking account? What is a debit card? What is a credit card? Why do they both look the same? You know, they do two vastly different things. What is credit? What is credit scores? Going into budgeting. But then what I really enjoy doing is going once we have that foundation set up.

expanding the knowledge over to what we typically call a game called needs, wants, and values. And the reason being is because once we start understanding how to calculate exactly what it is that we value in our lives, we're also able to attach those prices that everybody's so eager to learn about and understanding that the things that we need are essential, but there's a lot of open source knowledge and definitions and manipulations.

that goes into convincing us that products are what we need. And this is understanding things like, for example, performative authenticity, or another thing like conspicuous consumption. The idea that I'm not buying things because of their utility, I'm buying them to project status. And that's a level where everyone in the room immediately started relating. Once they started connecting the dots, that people are buying products

for the sake of their utility, but rather to project as though they have more than what they have. There's an old saying that people often go broke trying to act rich.

It's a sad and unfortunate reality. And I think to be able to dispel that myth that right. The myth that people have what they don't have or how do I want to say this? You know what? Right is is huge, right? Because we all can make assumptions or jump to conclusions about what another person has or how they live and how that compares to us. But I think our patient population

Sure.

is extra vulnerable to that because we know that in the context of first episode psychosis, we have impaired cognition, which can change decision making and make it a little bit hard in social situations to discern necessary information. our, you know, our people at our clinic are more prone to jumping to conclusions and or misinterpreting information. So you

being able to step into this space, give people concrete facts about finances, can hopefully help them to not fall in the traps that they're maybe a little bit more vulnerable to because of what they've been through.

It's a pleasure doing that kind of work, especially when I understand the connection with reality testing, not only from a financial literacy aspect, but also with what you guys do day to day in regards to the clinical thing and reminding people what reality truly is. I think the work that you guys do is truly unprecedented and probably something that should be required in all the classrooms going on right now, because we're living in a world where people are progressively being persuaded.

Yes.

that their life has to look like whatever projection they see on the other end of the phone. This is very interesting, especially when we get into larger discussions and larger decisions, because it doesn't take much reality testing to realize that a lot of people end up renting their lifestyles. And I mean that in this fashion. Most people don't have the cash to spend on a brand new car. Most people don't have the cash to spend on a new house. Most people...

have to take loans to have those things. However, from a psychological standpoint, when we're meeting somebody and we see them pull up in the ultra-luxury car, or we see them in front of the big, beautiful house, we presume that they own it. However, any one of us that have been adults for any given point in time realize most of the time they're paying monthly payments. So it's interesting to see people finance jewelry. It's interesting to see people finance watches.

It's interesting seeing the incorporation of buy now, pay later platforms where you can finance anything even up into a box of pizza. And all of a sudden people are going to end up realizing that the lifestyles people have don't necessarily belong to them. They belong to financial institutions or other institutions altogether.

Right, which is shocking, I imagine, to some and really, really disheartening to many. Right? And, you know, it's not to judge, but it's just like we were talking about before, just putting facts out there and helping to sort of deconstruct these images that are being projected out into the world, these images that are, and, you know, scenes that are being put up on TikTok and helping

people to ask questions, right? Like encouraging critical thinking. Is what you're seeing actually real, right? That reality checking that you were talking about. And if so, then what? And if not, then what?

Correct, absolutely.

You absolutely nailed it. And that's the objective of all the financial literacy seminars I try to do, particularly in regards to understanding that this world is open-ended in terms of the way that you can pursue it financially. It's not a lever, financial stability. It's more like a ladder. So you have to move one step at a time. And especially becomes common when we're talking to the world of savings. So we have to understand that subscriptions are designed

to be promoted in a way that you forget that they're coming out from a month to month basis. It's harmless when it's one specific subscription. But what happens when it's six? What happens when it's 12? What happens when the dollar amount's coming out aren't 2.99 anymore? What happens when they're 12.99 or 20 bucks altogether? All of a sudden, those dollars start adding up. Not only that, but what happens when we start realizing that the world itself is getting more expensive?

whether we're going to the restaurants, whether we're going to get fast food, whether we're going to the grocery stores, we're seeing prices go up, but we're also seeing that in many cases, the quantity we receive is going down. You see, one of the more interesting subjects I try to do, especially when I'm waking people up to what's going on in the world is understanding a topic called shrinkflation. What this is, the opposite of inflation, everybody typically knows that one, if you were inflating a balloon, the balloon gets bigger, shrinkflation is the opposite.

especially when there's economic contractions, all of a sudden people tend to notice that the quantity of the things they're purchasing typically gets smaller and smaller and smaller. A really funny story often here when people all of a sudden want to be extra transparent is that they feel guilty when they eat an entire bag of Lay's potato chips. Remember the big bag, the big bag of Lay's. And I ask them, especially with my current Gen Z's.

you

Where exactly does the bag of chips start? And they look puzzled. They're like, it starts halfway. I said, it starts halfway. When we were growing up, Serena tell me, where did the big bag of chips start?

the top.

So it's interesting seeing people pay full price for a half a bag of chips.

Yeah,

Yeah, yeah. That's like a very, very concrete and relatable example of how the world has changed.

It's incredible to look at this happening in real time and how many ways and how many through life people start understanding these things. So when we talk about subscription models, people look at their Spotify's, people look at Apple Music, and they're realizing these things compound with time. And when you add them up, all of a sudden it's an extra hundred plus dollars coming out of your account.

All of a sudden you go into the grocery stores, you can't finish a transaction for a family and not spend $100. All of a sudden, $100 is spending like a $20. So we've got to be extra careful with how we're spending our money because there's only so many ways to add more money. You can add more employment, for example. You may be able to pull a side hustle together. But it's important to realize it's not your fault. The world is actively changing in the realm of finance.

Right. And so if the world is actively changing, we need to change with it and or get ahead of it. So I want to circle back to what you were talking about with subscriptions, because I personally and clinically see there's manipulation there, right? A manipulation, a coercion happening and people buy into it and then end up, right? Paying money that they don't have to continue these subscriptions over years and years and years. So what advice do you have to any young

people who are listening who want to get ahead of getting in a subscription conundrum.

The first thing we do, and this is when you're intervening in any given subject, is know the extent that you're already in. So it's important to know how much you're paying via your subscriptions. A lot of the times, the vast majority of subscriptions that people end up subscribing to are done with their phone. Fortunately enough, the phone is able to show you exactly what subscriptions you do have within your settings. You put in your password, it'll show the list of things that you have. So there are usually subscriptions that we presume are indispensable.

So we're talking about things like Amazon Prime, for example, or Netflix, for example. All of these things that are designed to entertain us and make life significantly more convenient. If those subscriptions that you feel like you need, understand how much you're paying for it and what this looks like over time. But then there's also subscriptions that we might not have paid attention to because when we got them, they were significantly cheaper. Let's say something like a Disney Plus.

Let's say there was a show I wanted to watch and Disney Plus was running a special and saying that you could have these services for $2.99 for the duration of 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, whatever it is. But all of a sudden, you finish watching that show, but you forget to cancel that subscription. All of a sudden, that $2.99 isn't $2.99 anymore. It could be anywhere from $12, $20, whatever the next threshold is. And all of a sudden, you end up realizing, or hopefully in their sense,

Great example.

We'll do them.

You don't realize that more money is being drained out of your account because you've been trained to presume that Disney Plus for all of its value was only worth $2.99 when in actuality, you only wanted to watch one show. And those platforms provide you endless decisions. You just don't get to make a decision of importance. And that's something that we definitely need to understand, especially in our world today. We live in a world of infinite decisions.

But how many decisions are actually consequential in our lives?

Yeah, yeah, for sure. So first step in this subscription conundrum is to understand what you're paying for, how much you're paying for, and then decide, is it worth it? And then what would you advise to someone who enters into this relationship with said company and pays the $2.99 upfront, but then catches on to the $12.99 that they're paying three months later? What do they do?

Now, I'll never say don't spend money on something that you yourself don't feel like this is something that you need. For most people, when they want to watch their show, they want to watch it. And you often see now at times with regular TV that a lot of the things that we genuinely got used to having are now being pushed onto those subscription models because they themselves seem like they're becoming the new cable companies. So if you feel as though there's something that you need to watch and there's a special to take advantage of, by all means take advantage of it. But the key is you want to put reminders in your phone.

before the expiration date comes. This is a practical way because there's too many decisions that we make in our lives that we're gonna easily forget these important ones. So if we put a notification in saying, check on this subscription, we'll be able to A, read the fine print of what happens when the expiration date comes or B, cancel the subscription before the ultimate transition over to the genuine model ends up taking place.

So of course it's remembering that these companies themselves aren't necessarily being predatory. They're trying to use a special to get you in to show the value of their product so that you become a forever customer. The thing is these days people are being buying into specials that are in the single digits. And when the genuine, the true subscription comes out, it's always in the double digits. So that change, especially in an economy that's contracting ends up being serious hassle when somebody's trying to do their budget.

And people already, when they hear this, they're gonna be like, oh wait, let me start adding up the numbers. Congratulations, you're already budgeting your money.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Like these are just things that I think people don't think about, but you're helping them hopefully to think about as they're.

Notifications, we've got to use the technology for what it's here for. If we know

we're not going to be able to remember something 30 days from the data line, put an alarm to be able to remind us.

Yeah, for sure. I'm a, so, Epic Federal Credit Union is, has you on board to go out in the world and educate people in general, but young people in particular, about all these things, correct?

Correct. Correct.

which is

amazing and I think a really wonderful asset of a credit union. But it struck me as you were talking that maybe not all of our listeners understand what a credit union is versus a bank. So could you tell us a little bit about the difference?

Sure, because on paper they seem like they do the same thing. They're both financial institutions. They're both places to hold your money. But when we're talking about the differences between banks and credit unions, it's really priorities. see, banks are for-profit businesses. You look to monetize based off of your spending habits. So let's say that, for example, you didn't have enough money in your account to do a transaction, but the transaction goes through. You get charged what's called an overdraft fee.

Or let's say that you have something in regards to a credit card and you don't pay necessarily on time. The interest rate might be relatively high. We're talking high end double digits. Credit unions on the other hand, we're much more in line with walking you through your financial journey. So this is in regards to prime predominantly via education. This is predominant within focusing on credit and developing that over time, but also paying more attention to the individual. We tend to cherish and the reason why we stay small and local

We cherish those personal relationships with everybody that walks through the door. So at any given point in time, when you walk into a credit union, you'll have members who have been over there for 20 and 30 years. Remember, anybody who's a part of the credit union is a part owner of said credit union. So when you have that sort of authority, you can present yourself into an annual meeting or a town hall and be able to share your opinion because you are part owner of said financial institution.

This is what make credit unions such a powerful tool, particularly in this day and age. People want access to community resources. They also were looking for community engagement and credit unions haven't forgotten that essential factor that it's the community itself that tethers a world together. So God forbid another hurricane were to show up. Credit unions tend to individually shine because community all knows each other. Everyone knows what kind of work the other person does because we got

try to keep the network close-knit. And that's what encourages people after a disaster to come back and rebuild. It's really hard to convince a population to rebuild where nobody feels connected to each other.

Right. Yes. you credit unions help people feel connected to each other. You go out in the world and connect with young people. And this is all right. Like there's meaning behind all of this and power for change making. The other question I was going to ask related to the credit union or the point I was going to make is that what a cool thing for people, young people who are starting their financial journey.

to start it and hold power in it or have ownership in it, right? So for many of our patients at our clinic, they have not had, as you were saying before, checking accounts, savings accounts, or they're relatively new to all that. So I think there's a great opportunity here for those who are hesitant or who need some maybe...

additional support in setting up either or both of those things to do it through a credit union, a credit union of their choice, to get the support that they need to feel one, confident in their decision, and two, to maximize the benefits of it.

Absolutely and one of the things that of course you highlighted already There's an innate drive within everybody in the credit union to inform every member that comes in So it isn't just a matter of hey, I want to open this stuff. It's just explaining Hey, this is what this is. This is the benefits. This is how you maintain it over time This is how you build your savings over time when it comes down to credit Not only is this your credit score, but this is your credit report. This is what's transpired Let's show you how to make it better. Let's show you if there's anything that needs to be disputed

Let's show you what little things you can do to be able to correct the problems that have taken place. Because most people that come to me, they already have backgrounds. Just like anybody else that may come to the clinic, they have their stories. And it's on us as professionals not only to able to hear their stories, not only to empathize with what they've gone through, but to also be able to walk them through. Not to force them, but to walk them through on how to resolve their own problems. Because ultimately our objective is to teach people how to become financially independent.

And the key is that independency, because any organization that wants you dependent on them is secretly not, doesn't have your best interests at heart.

I think about the clinical symptoms and or histories of some of the people at our clinic and in the context of say bipolar disorder we have, mania, when someone's experiencing mania there can be overspending and someone who has gone through a manic episode and overspends may really mess up their credit.

when they stabilize and are feeling better and sort of trying to move their lives forward after that episode and they notice they have really put a huge dent in their credit, is it fair to assume that a credit union or one of the, know, someone who works at a credit union might be able to sit down with them and in a non-judgmental but supportive way help them think through how to sort of

how to make their way forward.

Absolutely, we even offer a service. called credit counseling. So this is the idea that takes it a step further This isn't just you sitting in front of somebody This is training sitting you in front of a trained professional that will walk you step by step one explaining what transpired What might have happened that you might have been blindsided to but these are also the solutions that are available as well What epic federal credit unit offers after is a third-party service that even further helps you out along the way So it doesn't feel like once you leave out the credit union

you're now detached from the source of that information. We make sure we arm you guys with significant resources that are able to, one, keep you honest in regards to your spending, two, make sure that you understand that there's a price to grandiose thinking when it comes down to impulse buying, and then three, to make sure that you have a solution in the event it has happened to not only rebuild your credit,

but to keep it up and running and strong. And it's actually a lot more simple than people think.

Yeah, that's great to hear. So as we move towards closing, I'm curious if there's anything else you would like to share with our listeners related to financial literacy, early intervention with financial literacy, or the work you do at large.

think it's tremendously important to remind everyone that's listening and anyone that will come into contact with this conversation in the future to understand that as the world changes, so will people's financial and spending habits do as well. No one size fits all solution fits all shoe sizes. Instead, people need to know how to develop traction. But the education, the foundation and understanding manipulative tactics, that is something that we can all learn and that no matter what age range we are,

we can always use a refresher on. Again, reality testing is the biggest thing because we want to make sure that we're not comparing ourselves to somebody who is living a performatively authentic lifestyle. The last thing we want to do is feel like we're failing or slip into anxiety or depression because we're thinking we're falling behind and somebody else is being propped up by cameras, by other people holding up or then telling the world, stop moving while I try and entertain everybody on the other end of the phone.

What we want to be is sincere. It's not only sincere in our finances, but sincere when we need help. Because again, there's no problem in asking for help. The goal in being able to solve problems is to acknowledge when you need help early so that problems don't compound in the future. That's the message I definitely want to leave behind. And it's amazing how quickly time passes when you're having a productive conversation.

you

Yeah, for sure. And I love that you finished with that because it is so on par with what we are trying to do with calm and the early detection matters. The shorter the symptoms of or the duration of untreated psychosis, the better the prognosis. If we can get in there early, help people understand what's going on, we can help them get back to living the lives they want to and move towards recovery. So we're doing similar work in very, different fields, but right, we overlap and that's

is what led to this conversation today. So I'm so happy that you were here and the conversation doesn't end here. The conversation is going to continue in the clinic over our Lunch and Learns which are happening on a monthly basis at Epic for young people to better understand finances, financial literacy, and build good credit so that they can build their lives.

I definitely can concur the conversations that occur during those Lunch and Learns are not only educational, they're also authentic as well. People are able to feel comfortable in expressing their true emotions and whatever genuinely comes to their mind. Because in those open dialogues, that's where change happens. And we want to grow together.

Yeah, for sure. And thank you for helping us to grow, our patients to grow. We appreciate you, Joshua, and look forward to seeing you in the community and at the clinic.

It was an absolute pleasure, Serena. Happy Fantasistic Day.

US one, bye.